Friday, August 15, 2003

From this entry

Ok. point by point. And note to all other readers…. Politeness counts.

RE: “Where did the terrorists come from? Why are they pissed about? Where did they get their weapons?… generally when really bad stuff starts happening to this country, it's not because of what The President or Congress did last week or last month or even last year but the effects of many years past” ------

OK, now this is one of the things about what, umm, well, the Left (Oooo! Booga booga booga!) teaches and believes that drives me nuts. If I look hard at what Americans and Republicans have done to cause the above, I ask you and others to re-read what I said above… There ARE forces in this world that are not American that play a role here.

“Where did the terrorists come from.” ------ How about…. the UN’s decision to allow the State of Isreal to be born. The UN’s decision to drive Saddam out of Kuwait and sanction him for twelve years. (That WAS the UN, hence it must have been correct.) The role of European powers in Middle East a hundred years ago. The nature of Islam (at least Arab Islam) that appears to just not deal with modernization and democracy very well at all. The role of German Nazis in the Middle East in the 40’s, and Stalinists later, in directly forming the foundations of Ba’ath parties in Iraq, Syria, and Arab totalitarianism in general. The relentless harping on the Israel-Palestine issue by Arab leaders, who find that immensly more important than improving the lives of their people. The Arab peoples for letting them get away with it… decade after decade. The appeasement of terrorism by Western politicians, Democrats and socialists included, that led terrorists to believe it was an effective and low-cost method to achieve their goals. And on and on.

I don’t see a lot of Republicans on that list. Please tell me what I have mentioned above that is NOT a factor in today’s Middle East.

“Where did they get their weapons?” ----- Well… from the US. And Britian. And Russia. And France. And Germany. And China. And Brazil. And Chile. And Czechoslovakia. And more. I wish I had the link to the Stockhom Peace Institutes study, but basically Iraq got 50% of it’s weapons from Russia, 20% from France, 27% from elsewhere, and 3% from the US. That’s why the US fought twice
against Migs, T-55’s, Mirages, etc. Yet of course… “The US armed Saddam.” ----- No one else matters. The desert is littered with Russian tanks, and no one seems to notice. My point entirely.

“One party ‘approved for the spending and CIA training of the Mujahadeen to fight the Soviets’, ‘ushered in a terrible sick symbiotic relationship with Saudi Arabia’, made Iraq an "Ally" to get to our new enemy Iran’…etc. ------

Nope. Just not so. Americans did…. not “one party”. President Carter did quite a lot. See the video on Ted Turner’s ‘Cold War’ series of Carter NSA Zbignew Brzinski addressing the mujahadeen. Carter sold the Saudis AWACS and more, much to Israel’s consternation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. Just not so. Americans did…. not “one party”. President Carter did quite a lot. See the video on Ted Turner’s ‘Cold War’ series of Carter NSA Zbignew Brzinski addressing the mujahadeen. Carter sold the Saudis AWACS and more, much to Israel’s consternation. Carter’s reign saw Iran become that enemy that, whatever you think, threatened a hell of a lot more Arabs than just Saudis, Arabs who then asked for our help, and we responded. Rightly or wrongly in hindsight? Sure, well worth exploring, but FAR from just a Republican issue. Meanwhile, the aggressive environmental and social catastrophe called the Soviet Union loomed over all, which I note goes unmentioned in your post.

“Financial benefits to Republicans.” ---- Extremely complex. Suffice to point out that Europe gets 60% of the oil it uses from that region, Japan about 80%, the US about 25%. And of course, it is ONLY greedy US capitalists that care. Everyone else (again) are innocent lambs. Not mentioned is the reality that, aside from any money, yes, it is (or at least was) VERY much in the US interest that European and Japanese economies not crash due to oil supply cut-offs. One wonders if our willingness to forestall that will still hold true five years from now.

RE: “Osama was pissed to have infidels on holy land, and we all know who authorized the first Gulf War”. ----

Yes. The United Nations Security Council. More to the point, we all know whose ass was left flapping in the breeze when the ‘International Community” approved waging war, and then hightailed it for home while leaving a hostile and angry dictator in place to be contained by two and only two countries.

“Bill didn't have the balls” ------ Unfortunately true. That fact was noticed by Mr. Bin Laden. He said so, on video, in reference to Somalia, the embassy “retaliation”, and the USS Cole. His assessment was a DIRECT, not indirect, cause of 9/11. In fairness, as I wrote, if Clinton HAD done what really needed doing, many of us on all sides would say “what the hell is this??”. Kind of why I say 9/11 had to happen, and those people died for a reason, to wake us all up.

“Heck, we're still in a mess and I don’t see a way out.” – Well, Mr. Bush does. Radically applying a two by four to the skulls of Middle Eastern leaders, and people, to get them to change a massively “fucked up” way of doing business. Many don’t agree with him. I got that. What I don’t get from the critics is, as you say, “a way out”. At some point, certain folks have to stop yapping about why Bush is wrong, and start telling us THEIR “way out”. I heard Mr. Gore the other day. I’ve heard the candidates. I’m reading, to my credit, blogs like this, I’m still waiting.

///////////////////////

OK, now this is one of the things about what, umm, well, the Left (Oooo! Booga booga booga!) teaches and believes that drives me

nuts. If I look hard at what Americans and Republicans have done to cause the above, I ask you and others to re-read what I said above… There ARE forces in this world that are not American that play a role here.


Andrew we very much agree on this, quite strongly actually. Despite being a self identified liberal, I myself get annoyed with politicians who think and act as if everything the US does is in a vaccuum. You know what I'm talking about, a sort of "If the US stopped doing what it was doing everything in the world would be a better place" mentality. This is why I find myself generally annoyed with some of the libs at the college radio station I work at. This is why I will never vote for Kucinich. Moving right along.....

“Where did the terrorists come from.” ------ How about…. the UN’s decision to allow the State of Isreal to be born.

This is in fact part of, but not the whole problem. This does not mean I agree with everything Israel does. I'm actually pretty knowledgable of the whole situation, and while Israel absolutely deserves to exist, the current policy of supporting Sharon with more settlements going up is making things work. There is in fact an extraordinary amount of hypocrisy on the parts of Arab nations, etc.

Of course Osama had set up network way before Sharon was PM. Barak was in office talking peace plan, albeit flawed, but it isn't just Israel. Someone like Osama envisioned a restored Caliphate including Spain for that matter, so no it isn't just US's bad foreign policy. Murderous zealots are a problem and they are not the fault of Dems or Repubs for that matter.

But SA was the theocratic represive regime before and after 9.11. As a matter of fact the House of Saud is in power largely due to the UK and ourselves. And considering all the problems that SA has caused the fact they we continue to support them is a conflict of interest with Israel. Why do we maintain this fucked up relationship? Oil.

“Where did the terrorists come from.” ------ "How about
-the UN’s decision to allow the State of Isreal to be born.
-The UN’s decision to drive Saddam out of Kuwait and sanction him for twelve years. (That WAS the UN, hence it must have been

correct.)


First and foremost I have a lot of problems with the UN, and wont defend everything they do. Dont lump me with those types. Liberal

I am, but pacifist or "everything the US does is wrong, lets listen to the UN" type I am not.

-The role of European powers in Middle East a hundred years ago.
-The nature of Islam (at least Arab Islam) that appears to just not deal with modernization and democracy very well at all.
-The role of German Nazis in the Middle East in the 40’s, and Stalinists later, in directly forming the foundations of Ba’ath parties in

Iraq, Syria, and Arab totalitarianism in general.
-The relentless harping on the Israel-Palestine issue by Arab leaders......
-The Arab peoples for letting them get away with it…


There have been a lot of problems from that part of the world for some time now. But the act of hijacking, suicide and whatnot is a very recent phenomenon. Appeasement by not smacking the bejesus out of terrorists? You're missing something. Even the most biased conservative will tell you that Saudi Arabia is corrupt and repressive. Unfortunately they are afraid to say anything to the
people in charge, in the White House and those who profit from the profits they pocket from our business relationship with our crude oil dealers. The SA have stolen billions from the people of SA thru the parceling of oil rich land and revenue.

And who looks the other way while we demanded "democracy" for Communist states? You can blame everyone since Nixon for making the situation worse, Bill and Jimmy included.

But for all the criticism deserved of Nixon, at least he was smart enough to recognize that we have to become energy independent. Nixon, Ford and Carter all reiterated that - until Reagan and his oil buddy VPO Bush got into office and pulled the solar panels off the roof of the White House.

Reagan put us on this path, Bush continued it and Bill saundered down, too high on the American economy to say anything about the situation.

Ya know, I'm a pretty forgiving guy, and had Bush been honest (is that even possible) looked us in the eye after 9.11 and said "we've made a terrible mistake, and we need to correct it - We need to change our oil policy" I'd give him a small amount of credit. But it is getting worse, and while he paid lip service to hydrogen IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN while he and Cheney are in office. We need to be energy independent.

And if you are going to feed me the bullshit line about ANWAR drilling dont even try it, there is 288 days worth of oil in Alaska, and it aint worth drilling unless the price is almost $2.00 a gallon at the pump. There are a lot of other alternatives to oil, but they'll never make it to market and be able to compete as long as oil continues to be subsidized. Without US military help and a slew of other federal funds, oil prices would be more than $3.00 a gallon in this country.

Take a look at our policies with China - we used criticize their anti democratic policies for years but it has been weakening for quite a while. However since they started making cheap shit for Wal Mart, in turn making them the number one retailer in America, we now say nothing. I don't know about you, but this sends the message that we really dont give a fuck about Democracy unless your goverment is acting against our interests. We continue to support a corrupt and repressive regime in Egypt as well, the other source for 9.11 hijackers. The terrorists (Osama and much of Al Qaeda) initially rebelled against those governments (Egypt and SA), but the governments of those nations had too tight a reign on the country, so they decided to what they saw was the source of the problem, the country that those people felt were keeping those governments in place. That would be us, since we give Egypt about 2 Billion in aid for playing nice with Israel, and the money ties between us and SA are so wide and deep that I have no idea just how much money is involved.

Andrew, WE have been letting them get away with it. WE have kept our mouths shut or rather many people who have occupied 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, including Bill. However Clinton was in office for 8 out of the last 22 years. And Bill didn't profit the way Bush Sr and JR, people around the Reagan Administration, and all their contributors have in the past and conitue to profit at this very moment.

They are far more responsible for the policies of the last 22 years, and the last 22 years are far more responsible for 9.11 than anything Carter or anyone else for that matter. Carter, while he provided weapons to the mujahadeen in Afghanistan, did not set up the Shah in Iran. Iran's revolution took place because we were basically supporting & controlling the repressive Shah in Iran, till 1979.

Then we had to partner with Iraq & Saddam to fight a mess that we in part helped create. It wasnt all our fault, but if we had pushed harder for democracy and human rights in Iran, the Ayatollah might never have had a way to galvanize Iraninans and taken power.

Yes, other nations are responsible for selling weapons, but we shouldn't have sold chem/bio weapons to a known brutal dictator after he had gassed a bunch of people. The very same people who made the case for war against Iraq by citing the Geneva conventions violations for using chem weaps (Cheney, Rumsfeld) were the assholes who used taxpayer money to sell those weapons
in the first place, not to mention the fact that they and their close friends actaully profited from some of those very same deals. They sold the disease, and then they sold the cure.

I hate running thru future scenarios about what would have been. I know this post started off as a pro-Gore thing, but I can't and wouldn't predict an alterative future with Gore in the White House. 9.11 may have happened anyway... maybe something else if they Berger plan had been implemented, but that's all meaningless now.

All I know is there was a plan on the table to try to take out Osama. It never happened, and Rice felt it was more important to write a new report about how to take care of Osama, and it wasted time. I think it was a mistake. Hindsight is 20/20, and I wont trash Bush on this point when there are so many other more significant reasons to be pissed at him.

AS far as Bill I'm more pissed at Bill for not raising CAFE standards, but it would have never happened anyway with Gingrich in charge of the House as well as Michigan Democrats who would whine for GM and Ford about the cost to their industry and lost union jobs and blah blah blah. He was dealt this hand by all these slimy bastards and decided not to make a big deal about all the questionable stuff going on in SA.

As for Bush, this is where we totally disagree. Osama was hold up in the mountains and instead of sending US troops we sent the Northern Alliance who in turn let them go. The book Bush at War chronicled how the White House decided to use the least amount of force in fear of American casualties, read that very passage. We spend more on defense than all other nations combined, and we send a bunch of ragtag soldiers to go after those bastards, who in turn let them go. I dont want to see US service people die, but if ever there was a reason to risk American lives this should have been it.

Paul O'Neil left the CIA before 9.11 because he felt the Bush administration had compromised our security for oil. He'd be telling us this right now if he hadn't died while doing security for the WTC.

And to make matter worse we continue to kowtow to the Saudis. We continue to make a slew or Arabian princes filthy rich when we drive our SUVs and those bastards in turn donate American dollars to "charities", front groups for terrorists. 28 pages classified in the 9.11 report? They normally only black out a phrase or paragraph for methods and sources, not pages. And so the Saudi government says "Release the documents, we want the truth to come out!" That is the oldest PR ploy in the book my friend. And of course the Prez plays along - no report is released, no report will ever be released. That might jeopardize profits for all of Dubya's contributors, and we cant have that now, can we?

Do you want terrorism to end? First make the US energy self sufficient - it would be like a heroin addict cleaning up going thru detox, but it is the only way. Ethanol, biodesiel, anything. Start subsidizing alternative fuels and cut big oil off completely. Try to be a little more even handed about Israel (I'm Jewish, but Sharon has got to go. Arafat was only half the problem... well 1/3, the other terrorist groups being 1/3 and right wing Israelis moving into the territories another 1/3.) Push for democratic reforms, but only after the Israeli issue is solved since most of the aformentioned nations would vote in theocratic repressive fundamentalist regimes if Democracy was available to those people now.

One more thing - every conservative cited the lesson of Hitler and appeasing evil as a terrible mistake. While this is absolutely true, no one ever seems to remember the other lesson of WWII - don't humiliate a people like France and the rest of the allies did to Germany post-WWI. You create the atmosphere for a Hitler to rise to power. We helped the Afghans fight the Soviets, but once the USSR fell we didn't do a damn thing to win the peace. You have to win the peace. I don't know how much aid it would have taken to help bring a little peace and prosperity to Afghanistan after the USSR pulled out, but in the long run it was way more costly to us considering all we've spent fighting the Taliban and Al Qaeda. I'm not against winning the war, but you have to win the peace afterwards, and we didn't do that.

I'm looking forward to your response. This was way longer than I had expected, it's a bit sloppy, but 3 hours on this book report and I've had enough. Forgive any spelling and grammar errors, I am too spent to proofread the damn thing.

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